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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hey all, been a while. Like 4 months.

Binned it and did not want to come back here until it was all a memory and I had got myself back together.

 

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Yikes ! Orange ya glad ya didn't hit that guard rail ? your rear end looks like it locked up skidded first.. is that pavement wet ? just how fast was you going when allhell busted loose ? these slo mos are hard to interpret. good to see you are still sucking wind , are you back at it yet ? riding. give us the skinny in text format for the hearing impaired challenged among us.. probably 50% of the field. poncho
 

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Glad you are still with us. After watching the video I don't see what caused you to lose control. What were conditions like? Keep riding and stay safe.
 

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Looks like someone already hit the guard rail in the same spot where you went down. That says to me that it is a dangerous part of the road. You did a great job not hitting the guard rail and you would have recovered if not for the crap on the side of the road.
Glad to hear that you healed up well.
 

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And what a great way to tell a lousy story! Thanks for sharing it with us. I also noticed the pre-bent guardrail and that you really didn't hit. I really thought you (and not too many others would have) had half a chance to save it until the very, very end. Glad you've had good family and friends to help and support. Welcome home.
 

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“I would think that braking into even a gentle curve is a rookie move...”

Not necessarily. Racers do it on EVERY curve. Done right it’s fine.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 · (Edited)
If you want to really know what is going on the reverse view tells the whole story but I will explain what and why. This is also why I just disappeared. An awful lot was a miserable time and dealing with the internet was not one of my priorities.

First up the tire that was on the back was new but scrubbed in. About 130k on it by that time and had no issues up through the mountains until that corner. We are talking peg scraping for reference. It was however a tire I do not prefer (Metzeller 888). I am not a fan of the grip levels in the wet but I never considered it dangerous, just not a preference. They just didn't "feel" right as well. I only put it on the day before because it was all I could get at short notice and I literally said "Oh well it will keep me out of trouble".

Second it was a rainy day but that should not be an issue. I ride all weather conditions and generally don't have a problem. From time to time wheels on bikes slip. No big deal. I have never been in a situation before where I could not recover as in this case, multiple losses of traction.

Third carrying some speed but nothing I considered excessive and below posted speed limit. If I told you I have ridden that corner hundreds of times I do not think I would be exaggerating too much. I bet you I go slower in future though.

So onto the accident. Watch the rear camera view and it tells the story. Watch the bars. No lies told there.

As I tip into the corner I lose traction at the rear. No big deal. You can see the bars shudder but it has got my attention.

The second was was a big deal. Now I know I was in real trouble and it felt like time had slowed down. It felt like it went through my mind a dozen times "do not hit the rail... do not hit the rail.. do not hit the rail". Its no BS, it feels like time slows. Anyway you see the bar come right down in almost a highside situation. The front is fine, I got nothing on the back. There was no lock up. The problem was no traction. Not brakes, just traction gone.

The third event it you can see I am just on the edge of holding this thing but I am coxing it away from the rail. "do not hit the rail... do not hit the rail.. do not hit the rail" and I got it stable but I am still on a lean because I have to and all out of road. Mud, grass and debris from the last poor ******* means that front washed out instantly and hard. Crushed my foot and then snapped it backwards.

Yes the brake light was lit. No the back was not locked up. I ride most of the time with the front brake covered and more so in sketchy conditions. There was some brake pressure because I wanted to wash off speed but no way was there rear pressure. There was no question in my mind about where the problem was so there was no rear brake application. I felt I only had traction the front (Commander II's ftw) because that is the only place there was traction.

It was 3.5 seconds from first loss of traction to the front wheel washing out. To me it seemed way longer than that. I knew what was going on the whole time. There was no target fixation, quite the opposite. My whole world was dedicated to missing that rail and at the very least I did.

Honestly I could get here and give whatever excuse or any reason but at the end of the day I did the best I could in the circumstances. If someone could do better in the same situation then they simply are better then me and I am sure there is plenty of people like that but show the video or you know, you got nothing ;)
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
BTW I'm back riding obviously but we cut it short today due to complications with the injury. I got deep vein thrombosis the other day because lucky me but caught it and being treated so with luck all will be well eventually. Just happy to be riding with my friends again. You can tell we have a great time.


Also the speed was 69 in an 80 zone on a posted 45 corner. You can actually see the speedo click to 69 just as the rear goes. As I mentioned we have done that corner many many times in wet and dry so up until that point that speed was not an issue. That time it clearly was with whatever combination of factors you want to pull out. Mistakes were made.
 

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"I bet you I go slower in future though..."

I have a personal rule that I go no faster than 10kmh over advisory speed signs. Yes, sometimes that leaves me thinking "I could have gone faster through there" but I make myself stick to it regardless.

This video also highlights what I believe to be a common problem when riding in front position on a group ride: you feel the pressure to go through corners faster than you probably would if you on your own. We're ALL susceptible to the pressure created by eyes watching from behind. It's why I only ride alone now. If I'm going out with others its "see you there" and we go our own way / pace.

Great video and analysis. We can all learn from your pain Shrubbo if that's some small consolation.

"Better slow in, fast out than fast in, dead out" (Stirling Moss).
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
You have misinterpreted bud. There was no pressure to ride faster and that was the normal speed around that corner, these were the same 3 I ride with all the time and 2 I consider my best mates. There was no pressure at all, I don't do those sorts of rides anymore and why I started my own.

That corner I have done so many times I can't count them. Were it has all gone pear shaped is I knew that tire was not the greatest in the wet but forgot just how much I didn't like it until I found that quote of mine and it was a "der" moment. Bought them because I needed them but forgot just how much I disliked them. In the dry I could do that corner way faster. Generally it is no bid deal.

So in short I should have known better. Mistakes were made.

I appreciate you have a rule where you only do 10kph above a sign and while I don't tend to speed much at all that corner I would never ride at 55kph. The reason I will ride that and every corner on the planet slower (in the wet) is because I got a lot of work to do to get my confidence back in the wet. In fact anything that has a "loss of traction" which I was quite err... competent with before.

These things happen after trauma to most people. As such I am putting a PR4 GT 190 on the back Monday (They just found me one) as they are in my experience the most grippy in the wet and that is what I need at the moment as well as a lot of dirt riding. You learn to slide and not have a heart attack there.
 

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I guess I was thinking more of corners I’ve never ridden before. You were well familiar with that corner so felt comfortable st that entry speed. I use my rule on the ones I haven’t seen before.
 

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“I would think that braking into even a gentle curve is a rookie move...”

Not necessarily. Racers do it on EVERY curve. Done right it’s fine.
Really? Not before the curve, but while in the curve? And using the actual brakes, not just engine braking with the safety of slipper clutch?
In Shrubbo's video his bike is leaning into the curve and the brake light flashes before he starts fishtailing. The tires may have something to do with it as he claims.
 

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Really? Not before the curve, but while in the curve?
Absolutely. It's trail braking - ie you're on the brakes in the curve but "trailing off' them right to the apex and then straight onto the gas. Standard practice for racers. Street riders should learn the technique too - not to "race" but simply to be able to be on the brakes in corners without locking up. Like everything, practice slowly and build up to it. Better still, take a course if you have the opportunity. You guys in the US have a bit of an advantage in that regard. Courses seem to abound there. Not so much here.
 

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Absolutely. It's trail braking - ie you're on the brakes in the curve but "trailing off' them right to the apex and then straight onto the gas. Standard practice for racers. Street riders should learn the technique too - not to "race" but simply to be able to be on the brakes in corners without locking up. Like everything, practice slowly and build up to it. Better still, take a course if you have the opportunity. You guys in the US have a bit of an advantage in that regard. Courses seem to abound there. Not so much here.
I know what trail braking is. But the process is started before entering the curve while the bike is still vertical, not when the rider is in the curve and leaned over.
Sounds like an opportunity in Oz. "Geepers School of Racing & Motorcycling" has a nice ring to it. :D
 

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Glad your ok and back in the wind. I had a similar situation happen a few months ago before I bought my Valkyrie. I almost lost it on a sharp curve riding my Victory Cross Country. In my case it was totally my fault. After twenty years of riding motorcycles I know better than to go too fast in wet conditions... but I did and came about 2 inches away from sliding down a hill. Again I'm glad you're okay and thanks for sharing your experience.
 

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I know what trail braking is. But the process is started before entering the curve while the bike is still vertical, not when the rider is in the curve and leaned over.
True. But I was responding to your original comment where you said "braking into a corner is a rookie move". Anyways, I think that's all getting off the point. Point is he didn't touch the rear brake so the fish tail was nothing to do with that. He was just very lightly using two fingers on the front brake. And it must have been very light pressure or his front would have folded. Clearly the rear end slip was simply caused by excessive speed on a damp surface. If that guard rail wasn't there he would have no doubt ridden it out.
 
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